Jordan Peterson | Cambridge Union

(John August) #161

Sarah Silverman :

“I want to get an abortion. But my boyfriend and I are having trouble conceiving.”

(Andrew Downing) #162

Found this for you:
Study on Jordan Peterson’s Fanbase by Joseph Parrish

The fans are a widely spread group politically.
The people making all the noise are the PC crowd, including you.

(pip linney-barber) #163

By way of evidence you post a survey of 225 people? You do know what ‘libertarian’ means in the US, right?

(Andrew Downing) #164

225 actual fans that care enough to be discussing him in a forum. The relevant group for the question.

I do know what libertarian means in the US, but the respondents were from all over, the bulk of the respondents we’re not libertarian, most claimed to be centrist, and more thought he was centrist than we’re centrist themselves.

(pip linney-barber) #165

It was from a biblical lecture series

How do you get to…whatever age you are…and not see what he is doing? What he is inspiring?

And you call me a fascist? You sanctimonious prick. If you were in my room at the moment, I’d slap you happily … You arrogant, racist son of a bitch Pankaj Mishra.

Like that? I can retrieve his other calls for violence if you’d like.

Against your 225, half of whom were conservative/libertarians, i put forward the tens of thousands of posts on redpill and other mens’ rights forums that treat him like a guru.

Does it not give you pause for concern that he inspires such groupings?

(pip linney-barber) #166

Btw, is abortion immoral? In you view?

(Andrew Downing) #167

Shades of grey pip.
Absolutes in morality are a bad idea.

(pip linney-barber) #168

The only person pushing absolutes hereabouts is your beloved.

(Andrew Downing) #169

Context @PLB
Pankaj Mishra had just accused him of “Romancing the noble savage”, in reference to Petersons long term personal friendship with members of an indigenous tribe. He’d helped them out over many years with their problems. They’d helped him build a new level on his house. They formally made him an honorary member of their family.
Then Pankaj comes out with the noble savage shit.
I’d be angry too, but it was not a call to violence.

(Andrew Downing) #170

You are providing a resounding demonstration of exactly what is wrong with PC culture.

It’s all virtue signalling and no substance or nuance.
It’s all about being with us or against us.
People must be good or bad.
Abortion must be moral or immoral.
Guilt by association of who talks about you, even if that might help them.

And it seems impossible for you to imagine that someone like me doesn’t want to play that terrible game.

(John August) #171

225 seems a reasonable sample size to me. Do you know more about statistics than me?

(pip linney-barber) #172

You are defending violence

(pip linney-barber) #173

Probably not. 225 on a confined invitation compared to 1 million plus followers is reasonable to statiscians?

What exactly is the ratio required to justify a claim, from a statistions perspective?

(Steven) #174

@PLB Do you agree with these observations? Do you consider that this should be the way?
( I’m not really interested in the talk about JP, I don’t really like him as a person. )

(Laura) #175

It is both wrong to ban someone from having an abortion and to force someone to have one.
When the state bans abortions it is dangerous for pregnant people who see the need to have one but have to do it through unsafe means.
At the same time, forced abortions can be a tool used by states for committing genocide or other eugenics projects.

At the end of the day, whether or not to terminate a pregnancy has to be the choice of the pregnant person and the more freedom they have in the decision the better.

I personally wish for a society that supports (potentially) pregnant people in a meaningful way so that they are not coerced by a bad situation to make a choice they wouldn’t make otherwise. A UBI would go a long way. In my personal opinion and experience, the fear of becoming pregnant is one of the most toxic things one can instil in young people who may be able to conceive. This is not to judge or dismiss those people who would still freely choose to abort their own pregnancy, for whatever reason.

(John August) #176

I’d imagine 225 would be adequate. Yes, sample sizes of around 50 or less would be dodgy, but things get better surprisingly rapidly.

If you plug in a population of 3,000,000 ; a confidence interval of 95% ; a margin of error of 7% - into the following webpage, you’ll get a sample size of 196 :

Now, I could delve into the mathematics of sample size myself, but that would take time. Do you think that is an appropriate thing to impose on me? Yes, if we have reason to believe the sampling is biased, that is a problem. But the burden of proof is surely on critics making that claim. Other things equal, I’m sure the above calculation is soundly based, and I expect a sample size of 225 is adequate in the context of the claims being made.

I worry about how much internal fact checking you are making about your claims, as compared to just throwing stuff out there and hoping something will stick. There’s a saying about economists who can pick ten of the last three recessions. Look, maybe you’re onto something. But you are not developing your points in a way that I find credible. Maybe there are separate criticisms that could be made of Andrew. Maybe. But, for the present, the issue is sample size.

(pip linney-barber) #177

Thanks for the statistics lesson, John. I’ll take it on board. In regard to the survey, given it is an acceptable sample size as you say, i have two observations. Firstly, 16% see him as liberal/left, which i find weird, though in Canada where he is best known that is zero%. Secondly, a further query would be the extent to which these 225 have swallowed the Kool-aid. Is it just the banalities in the self help guide or have they drained the whole cup and swallowed the biological determinism of gender, the myth fantasies and ‘eternal truths’ etc…

I’d also add that if Peterson is appealing to people in the centre to a greater degree than i’ve imagined, that is a deeply concerning trend.

(pip linney-barber) #178

No, i do not think in these binary terms. It’s vacuous accusation that i ignored. I will say though that abortion is not immoral. It’s not actually a moral issue at all in my mind, it is a woman’s choice to do what she wants with her own body, morality shouldn’t come into it at all.

This why people calling abortion ‘wrong,’ is sexist or worse. It places female bodily autonomy in a moral realm, which to my mind is somewhat vile.

(Steven) #179

Generally social conservatives reside in the center, those that are democratic and not imposing stuff on other people, but tend to exemplify themselves. Just as JP does. But JP did try to stop the universities from creating gender-studies, so I will not forgive him for that.

Universities creating gender-studies, especially in the psyhcology / social sciences area are a great benefit. It’s like like legalization of eugenics, or biohacking + geoengineering. All of these sciences should be ‘legalized’ and taught correctly & balanced.

(pip linney-barber) #180

Perhaps not a ‘call’ to violence but an endorsement thereof. He got a bad review. It’s all words and for someone who advocates speaking precisely, on this occasion, words failed him.

But his response is not anomalous when contextualised against his body of work in relation to traditional masculinity. In fact it’s a snuggly fit. It runs all through the self-help manual. This is not to say he is overtly calling for men to be violent, he doesnt do that, but a traditional masculinity necessarily entails a type of physical assertiveness that we all be better off without, in my opinion.