Jordan Peterson | Cambridge Union

(Steven) #121

By telling her how Chaos is the representation of her sex, and how the mystical representation of males should fight Chaos? :laughing:

Something’s clearly wrong there, but damn funny if we extrapolate

(Andrew Downing) #122

Yes I read it.
He’s talking about creating more order, like get your act together, clean your room (metaphor for getting your own house in order before going wider), find purpose and meaning by making the world a better place with less suffering etc.

How the hell you get some kind of anti-woman thing out of that is beyond me.

(Andrew Downing) #123

I don’t think you’re handling the idea of metaphor well.
Also, I think the role of creator-of-life is more a basis for reverence of women than fear.

(Steven) #124

I’m just kidding, it’s just funny to think about JP being scared of his sweetheart :laughing:
I never attributed political sense and spirit to any fantastical / mystical story. They can surely influence, but little peeps need to be taught the sense of metaphor, and that it’s not applicable in reality, but many still believe in fairy tales.

Later edit: A lot of regimes tried to censor fairy tale books and replace them with something more politically correct at those times. For example Soviet Union always loved to brainwash its “patriotic children” with stories about brave soviets that fought against capitalists represented by big pigs, and with the bears exposing the pigs in the end.

It has a lot of psychological effects on children, and that’s the best way to start the propaganda in time, or even before time

They always failed, because books-burning already happened in history at the Inquisition times.

(pip linney-barber) #125

The chapter you’re referring to reads like a subtle call to aggression, to me. The part where he discusses standing up to bullies particularly but it’s subtle and i think it stands out to me because i’m familiar with Maps of Meaning.

It’s not just me! Look at the profile of his fans, Andrew. He is the hero of mens rights activists, incels, believers in traditional values and family structures. You seem very quick to accuse me of not reading him correctly but if thats your view you ought to join an anti-feminist mens group and take up the discussion there because that’s where he is making an impact.

(pip linney-barber) #126

It is amusing to think of his personal relations with his wife once the front door is closed, amusing but irrelevant. Did you know he only eats red meat and salt and he only drinks water? 100% red meat diet.

As if his lack of care about climate change needed further highlighting. (As in the need for all of us to reduce our meat consumption in order to minimise the negative environmental impacts of industrial meat production). He even advocates for this ridiculous diet.

(Steven) #127

He’s clearly not my role model, rofl.

(Andrew Downing) #128

You have such a divisive outlook.
Peterson doesn’t shy away from talking to groups of people with problems. He’s a psychologist. Those are the people he tries to help.

For example, his message to incels is “Look, if you’re getting rejected by all of the women, the problem isn’t them; it’s you. Get your act together and make something of yourself so there might be something about you worth wanting.”

Do you get it?
Dividing people and guilt by association is broken.
Reaching out, connecting and helping is the go.

(Laura) #129

what are you doing, pip?
Plenty of people believe in mystical creation beings who are/were gendered. That does not make them misogynists. Plenty of women live traditional lifestyles in traditional gender-roles and don’t consider themselves oppressed, and that does not mean they all suffer internalized oppression. Having a choice means being allowed to choose the traditional way as well, otherwise it’s not really a choice, is it!

BTW I think I need to increase my red meat consumption, already had one episode of extremely low iron levels in my life, don’t need another one…

(Andrew Downing) #130

No, he doesn’t. He mostly hates talking about it, actively says he doesn’t recommend it to anyone else. Says he’s not a nutritionist and only arrived at this through elimination diet in trying to resolve autoimmune disease problems peculiar to his family. Says it’s really hard to stick to, and makes traveling and socialising hard.
Hardly an advocate.

(Steven) #131

I think there are solutions to that which can except red meat, imho…

(Laura) #132

“solutions” which don’t work for me and many. Red meat is the easiest source of iron for your body to absorb, but still very hard. Losing criminal amounts of blood every month, even that may not be enough.

(Laura) #133

sorry, the easiest is an iron drip, but that’s really only a solution once things have already gone south.

(pip linney-barber) #134

Actually, no he isnt anymore. He doesnt practice, no need given the bank account. (minor point but worth noting).

His message to incels is to be a ‘man’, in a traditional sense and if you are, like lobsters (lol), you’ll attract all the best wimenz.

Divisive is reinforcing traditional gender roles, mate.

(pip linney-barber) #135

Yes, he doesnt make a big deal of it, i agree. However, he does mention it from time to time and it would be better if he didnt given the likelihood of fan based mimicry.

Of course, but i’m referring to JPs version of mysticism specifically, and perhaps i didnt make that clear.

True enough, Laura, but i guess from a Foucaultian perspective ‘internalized oppression’ is a tricky topic to dismiss or measure, nevertheless i take your point. However, i see the promotion of traditional values, especially in terms of gender roles, essentially sexist based on the fact of historical patriarchal structures. If someone chooses such a lifestyle it is of course their choice. If someone advocates for such a lifestyle as some kind of antidote, i object on the grounds of gender equity.

(Andrew Downing) #136

Incels, by definition are involuntarily celibate, as they don’t have partners, despite wanting to, but see no hope on that front. They’re typically male.

If you don’t understand that women tend to find competence attractive, then you are delusional. Like, who would want to have a partner that is just useless and incompetent? Male or female, doesn’t matter.
That’s not traditional conservative value. It’s a basic human value. In fact, his point with the lobsters, was that it’s even more fundamental than just being a human value. The same neurochemistry that drives this goes all the way back to our common ancestors with lobsters.

Maybe you envisage a future where incompetence is revered?

What would your advise to incels be? I mean, in the sense of improving their lives rather than just hating on them.


Thank you Stephen for this nicely balanced comment. I was a bit taken aback, and Laura mentioned it too, when Andrew said “identity politics is the politics of hate.”

I note Laura’s reference to Hannah Arendt. I looked her up and was struck by her emphasis on the importance of holding onto your Jewishness during the holocaust. The blanket rejection of identity politics seems to be at odds with Hannah Arendt, too.

I draw inspiration from the stories of Jewish survival in the holocaust, although I’m not Jewish and I don’t aspire to be. But I do aspire to have the courage of those who resisted. The White Rose is a great example of a gentile role model from that period. And now when the Jews recognise the Righteous Among the Nations, identity doesn’t matter when it comes to doing the right thing. The honour and the gratitude are no less because the recipients are not Jews.

But when the Nazis come knocking, does your Jewishness not matter? Oh yes, it matters all right.

Well, it’s like you put it. It’s cool that identity politics helps aboriginals strengthen up. I know it definitely worked for my people when we were minorities back in the imperial ages in balcanic Europe.

(pip linney-barber) #138

A good question so i’ve spent the last three hours on incels dot net and a very large and extensive reddit forum called redpill. I have no idea, is my answer.

The incels dot net forum was just depressing. I have no advice for them beyond see a therapist, quickly, before you commit an act of sexual violence. It’s pure misogyny.

The redpill crowd were scary. They have so many threads relating to Peterson that there is even one thread designed for criticism of him in order not to create an echo chamber (there aren’t many posts there).

Andrew, obviously i reject Peterson’s thesis but i do not believe he would support many of the things his followers say. Even if i were to grant him good faith intent in his public career (which i do not entirely) his work is being used to support some very ugly shit. It may well be inadvertent but he is fuel to a dangerous fire.

Of course, i do not include you in that observation.

I need break from him actually.

(Joe Fury) #139

Nothing to see here fokes, keep moving

(Andrew Downing) #140

All is well. We’re having a great conversation.
Try having this conversation in the forums of any other party, and I think the result would be different.