PAX Pirata: Creativity, Copyright, Conflict & Collaboration -- Now with flow transcription notes (2017-06-10)

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I decided to do a transcription optimised for reading flow. I declare my transcription effort as free to use by anyone, but do note that you will need to proof read it as it is not to professional level. This was transcribed in only a single pass, so there will most likely be glaring errors. But enough to get a feel for the event.

This transcription aim is to be easier to index for web robots.

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PAX Pirata: Creativity, Copyright, Conflict & Collaboration

Source: PAX Pirata: Creativity, Copyright, Conflict & Collaboration
Transcriber: Initial transcription base is via Youtube Automated Transcription, heavily formatted by Brian Khuu as a psudo essay less about accuracy and more optimised for reading flow.
Event Date: 2017-06-10

Welcome To PAX Pirata: Creativity, Copyright, Conflict & Collaboration

I am your humble moderator McGinnis… first things first I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we are meeting.

I pay my respects to their elders past and present and the elders from other communities who may be here today

Today on this panel we have

  • Simon Frew : a musician and president of Pirate Party Australia (Pirate Party Shirt)
  • Jennifer Scheurle : game developer from flat earth games. (Object In Space Tee) (German)
  • Morgan Jaffit : creative developer from divine development (Glasses, wavy hair)
  • Paul Noonan : board member from music Australia and a copyright lawyer. (Looks like a classic band singer)
  • Brigid Dixon : from Thomson Geer Law a copyright lawyer who works on the Dallas buyers club case which of course we may all be somewhat familiar with all right let’s get started. (Looks like a lawyer)


Why don’t we start with simon.

  • Simon Frew: Alright I basically became interested in intellectual property issues around because I’m an artist and I saw the potential Internet gave to cut out the middleman and just give stuff straight to consumers and I made music and had music taken down for stuff like mashup and things. DCMAed. So I’ve been on the receiving end of some overly aggressive copyright issues over the years and somehow found myself in the leadership of the pirate party. (Pirate Party Shirt)

  • Jennifer Scheurle: Hi i I’m Scheurle I am a game designer I think I’m on the panel because I am from Germany and we have very different perspective and cultural approach to copyright and pirating in general. When I came here when I had this goal as a creator in but also the consumer it was really foreign to me that people have kind of adapted pirating music content and movies to be part of the culture of Australia and Australians. I am also a creator the game project space so we’re indie, you know one of the struggling to make games of all of you. (Object In Space Tee)

  • Morgan Jaffrit: So my name is Morgan I run a games studio in Brisbane with about 25 people our bread and butter is IP we create so I had had one IP I used to run an open source software developing studio in the 19th so I had that perspective on on sharing economy and fundamentally I come down on the side that that most of the work we create if we are fortunate enough becomes part of the cultural landscape and I think people have entitlements the culture that they are part of. I don’t think you should just be sold your culture, you should have ownership of it and do thing on your side with it. Big fan of mashup and fan creations, remixes and new ways of looking at built. We have a very open policy to people building things without the our work and our rule is that if you are not making money off it you can do whatever you want, and if you want to make money off it then we are happy to talk about that too. Pretty Relaxed.

  • Paul Noonan: I’m from the board of Music Australia which is a sort of peak industry music industry body before I became a lawyer I was a professional musician enough in a few rock bands. I’m on this panel because I got into a Twitter spat with Ben about copyright and because of a recent inquiry by the productivity Commssion into copyright law that’s caused a lot of controversy in the creative community as some of you might know and I was engaging pretty heavily in a few tweets once every night. I believe I called ben a condescending prick and a couple of weeks later I got an email for me with DM on Twitter asking if I can come on this panel.

  • McGinnis: I’ve been sitting and I thought I’ve gotta run this panel and I asked now who do I know who can take the Pro copyright stance and once I asked for out loud the answer was obvious.

Paul Noonan: Fair use in USA vs Australia

  • Paul Noonan: Okay yes, being on an organization that represents musicians or musical making bodies and personally former musician. I’ve got a what if a lot of you would probably regard as a very conservative position on copyright and I recognize the issues that have just been mentioned about mashups and digital technology in the way that affects creativity these days. But I think the fundamental point is consent, people giving their consent to others doing what they want to do with their material and being able to widthold their consent if they don’t want people to mashup their material or use it in particular ways.

The hot button issues that we might touch on tonight are about that because in Australian is a big push towards a much more expansive regime that allows people to use copyright material without being sued and the other issues. In Australia we’ve got a pretty restrictive fair dealing regime where there’s some very specific exceptions like criticism and review or reporting news that sort of thing where you can use copyright material up to a reasonable extent without being pinned.

Whereas in the states that appear use which is a much more comprehensive and really quite controversial concept that allows much more freedom of use of material without requirements of owner consent. So that’s where I sort of come from in the debate anyway if that makes sense

Brigid Dixon: Accessibility

  • Brigid Dixon : So I’m also a lawyer so its no surprise that I’m a copyright champion as well, but having said that I’m in my late 20s now so any consumer choice I made was made in an age where if I wanted it I should be able to get it. Aka should probably always be able to get it on my phone which I think shapes how you feel up about these things that are first principles that people have been working with for so long. I’ve got copyright experience so I am a rights holder lawyer and the same time I see your grave concerns about the dallas buyer club case. During that time I was on the side of the telecommunications company in that one and fought for the perspectives that I really belived in as well so I think that that’s where that consumer choices comes in to that this idea that things should be accessible. That you should be able to get what you want when you want it.

But if you’re going to get it probably have a way to pay for it and not pay a premium for it. I guess with that where I come from.

Jennifer Scheurle: piracy in other countries

  • Paul Noonan: Can I just suggest something that came out of a conversation I have with Jennifer just before we came in and she was talking about her perception coming from Germany and now working in Australia at the moment. That is a really a real cultural difference between attitudes to copyright consuming copyright material in Germany compared to Australia.

This is in particularly in relation to consent and piracy that sort of thing I thought that’s really interesting

  • Jennifer Scheurle: Just elaborate a quick so you understand where I’m coming from. Where I come from obviously there are always people who pirate things like music and games and movies however overall it’s not really something that is that is being accepted in into the culture of young Germans. Even though we want to continue these things that they’re still like a cultural barrier between that wanting it and actually pirating it. When I came here one a half years ago that was very different when I tell my friends that I have never pirated anything anything they’re looking at me like I’m crazy. I don’t even know it’s so bad I don’t even know I wouldn’t even know how I have no idea if you would see me in front of a machine. So I I have no idea how it works and I work with computer my entire life. So that far how it goes, and so I found that quite interesting. I’m not quite sure where the difference lies.

We talked a little bit about that there are quite strict laws in Germany and they are being enforced very yes strictly as well. My uncle was part of one of those lawsuits where he was accused of downloading music and have to pay 5000 Euros at the time. Which is a lot in Australian Dollars. And he didn’t do it, he has no idea how to do it. But it was enough evidence just have a screenshot of all the downloaded data via your internet connection be a long case in court, so yes he was convicted and so that was a thing.

  • Brigid Dixon : That would not be enough evidence in Australia and that was something we worked on. A well worked system is a system that works and I think that that’s where you’ve got to think of when you’re coming from both of these perspectives. We’re very fortunate in that we live in a society that put some sort of inherent worth and value on creatives outcomes and on creative work.

So everyone accepts that you know you should pay a bit of money for a movie everyone understands that you should pay money for music even bad music sometimes. You should pay money for games because people work very hard on them, we work in a system where you don’t get paid then you can’t do it.

So I think that that general acceptance here but in Australia it is so hard to get content sometimes and you’ve seen the way that things have changed with the introduction of streaming services and how long that took us to get those and without having to be VPNs. That’s why I think the rest of that general acceptance comes from is that service it is so hard yes it is so hard to get good things.

We do not have bad taste in Australia if you give us good movies we will buy them if you give us good shows you will buy them but at the moment would if your market looks the way that it does then there’s this general acceptance and ultimately the people who lose out on that is everyone because there are less people consuming good content there are less people being paid to consume good content there’s less good content being produced and funded in Australia.

I can imagine that that happens in all sorts of outlets so it was it’s interesting that when dallas came up. One of the things that got talked about is how acceptance it is how we are huge downloaders. We are the biggest piraters in the world right I don’t know where those numbers necessarily come from. You may need to check.

Morgan Jaffit: Evolving nature of media and services

  • Morgan Jaffit: Can I just briefly touch as somebody whose games goes across the world. We make mobile games and we’ve also made game for steam and PC and we get great numbers and feedback from both of those and there’s no way we pirate more than China. Not a chance in hell.

I can releasea a games that sells 5,000 copies, and I can have 800 thousand users tonight and 99 percent of those are in China.

Interesting thing is that China is starting to pay. China is seeing the same sort of issue of difficulty in consumption, now I think culturally pirating still pretty accepted there too.

But I don’t think it’s quite true anymore to say that games believe that you should pay for games, because the price of games has descended to free and the enormous amount of profit in the game space is made by free to play I guess so in which there is no distinction between a pirated copy and a real copy.

But this leads to a very singular type of game so it means it’s a game that’s backed onto a server that stories and data that is relevant and then you have consumables. But thats not the game we make. We make coherent games that comes with a price tag affixed and very easily pirated and it’s totally okay but I think you’ve seen in the vast majority your profit moving to the free to play place now so the vast amount of money in terms of investment games goes to free to play. Basically games that rely on services not not purely content.

Simon Frew: Accessibility and Convenience

  • Simon Frew: Lot of the driving force for piracy is done though the lack of accessibility. For example I got a Steam account and it just stopped me pirating games completely, since it’s just a better to pay now or wait for an email with half price offers.

So essentailly its better accessibility issues also likely to get better quality if you pay for again because of software updates instead of v1.0 which may be buggy or lopsided, thus more likely a flawless good experience.

I have been a lot slower to stop pirating TV shows and stuff like til I got a Netflix account. Now I download less because it’s just so cheap, easy to use and the so much content that I go TV! what to watch, scrolling though until I find something that appeals to me and put it on.

So I think a lot of the driving ways reputation really heavy prating comes from particular movies where there’s staggered release dates and so you’re getting like in social medias a global platform so you’ll be getting tweets telling you what’s happening in the movies months before we are allowed to see. So the movies ruined for me, I’ll just download the next movie straight away to avoid spoilers.

Movie industry are better at this and they bringing released dates closer to be like global release dates and probably in some cases they are I really think it’s sort of the thing where if it’s like a reasonable price and accessible then people a lot less likely to pirate it.
As opposed to if it was more difficult to legally obtain it via DRM locking or massive 2 minutes piracy ads at the start of the movie.

  • Jennifer Scheurle: You brought up a really interesting point that you brought up with things being easy because out of all the new platforms that we have for gaming for movies before for anything really that are now successful in their fields.

They have one thing in common they’re easy, Netflix is easy you know you pay you pay a fixed amount it’s easy to use and same goes for STEAM and goes for Spotify and I think that is that is what newer generations also want. We are a very different and new generation of consumers that care about things being easy and accessible.

Paul Noonan: Copyright is property

  • Paul Noonan : Can I just say something there I think there are two there are two things there one is it’s a there’s a lot of discussion about what consumers want and obviously that’s really important when you’re in a business of producing the thing you want people to buy.

But the fundamental there is a fundamental point that copyright material is property and the people that owned the property have got the right to decide what they want to do with it.

In my view and sometimes they might want to keep something off the market for a short period or a longer period.

  • McGinnis: I would like to interject. It’s not so much holding back the material as holding it back from specific parts of the market. It’s the distribution chain that is the major causes of problem in most cases especially as was mentioned before with movies now. It’s fine where you’ve got a real number of reels shipping around the world there is a production cost there.

But we buy DVDs anymore? (A few put their hands up. Bit of laughter)

While we do download a great deal. Australians spend more per capita than any other Western country in the world at least that was that was the case when we took those numbers to the election in 2013.

Audience: Fustration over media cost

  • Audience Question: Do believe that piracy is so rampent because of the sheer fact that it cost s dammn much to buy a dvd? I mean just buy one of the TV series and it cost $57 dollars in the last time I checked. Do you believe thats why the pirate party became a thing.

  • McGinnis: I say its the combination of all cost and the ability to actually obtain it in Australia.

We are still classed as region 4 after the U.S. and Canada in region 1. Region 2 is Europe and parts of Southeast Asia… Japan I think, and regions 3 is most of the rest of the world except for Australia and New Zealand. We are literally the ass end of the planet and get everything last.

Well whenever you talk about a physical item, Australias out of luck. We have a small population we’re geographically dispersed and we’re literally as far away from anything as you can possibly be

  • Morgan Jaffit: If there is a bright center of the universe this is the planet. And that’s just the reality the more niche the product - so the more the smaller the audience the more I’d add costs involved in bringing over. That being said we are pretty well overcharged for everything and particularly on this digital stuff where you have distribution.

That there are a lot of archaic distribution agreements in place that drive pricing. You know an American price will be said local distributors has a local price based around physical goods and therefore your digital copy will cost the same as if it had to be shipped here on a boat to a niche and and these are all difficult problems to solve without pissing off your physical goods distribution chain.

  • McGinnis: Here’s the things like okay so you’ve got it shipping it from America, but I are you really?

You could transfer it digitally and press it here in Morabbin.

  • Morgan Jaffit: Look you could but again it comes down to facilities there are various facilities of various sizes. And we looked into physical copies of various games there are places locally that do it but expensively because small batch compared to Chinese factory that can churn out many copies. The thinkg I think we should becareful about is that in almost every case there are reasons that things exist that doesn’t make it right correct or maintainable.

So you’ve got an ongoing user process of reasons and justifications but we have better options we have better opportunities and some things will change. To touch on Australia I just think we are criminal by nature (Laughter)

Particular compaired to Germans, Germans a very rule abiding people.

  • Audience: I think the was thing we have created I wanted broken and scribbling that we have generation post in fact the editable state may not really 2010 the Canadian usually post because that it gets (Note: The audience question was garbled… most likely incorrect. Need retranscribing)

  • McGinnis: Technically the thing about the ACCC, though they did get crushed by the MPAA by trying to arc up about it. The issue with that was that because the DVDs and now blu rays as well are encrypted are requiring very specific devices to play those items as distinct from a region free media is that that was technically third line forcing in what was then the Trade Practices Act. (Australian Consumer Law)

  • Paul Noonan: I would like to reiterate, that even though obviously you are a creator (Morgan Jaffit) and that’s your business. The discussion again shifted back to the consumer perspective and I’m not trying to downplay that, but copyright is by nature at the moment and always has been a territorial beast so you get you create something in Australia if your your rights come from the Australian Copyright Act.

And because there are a lot of international treaties you also get corresponding rights in other countries but from the perspective of a creator who’s been in bands or a songwriter or or other you know filmmakers who are clients of mine. The ability to control where your work gets exploited and commercialized and who by is really fundamental to your ability to to make money out of what you do.

Because if you if you do a deal with a big global bohemoth whoes to say that they’re going to have any interest in exploiting your product in Italy or Sweden or whatever and there are countless Australian bands who had nice successes in countries and made really good money because they’ve done deals with independent labels in a range of different countries.

I think that needs to be looked at as well the whole region coding thing and ended the fact that the Australian parliamentary inquiry showed that we do get hard done by in terms of purchasing the software and music and films.

You don’t want to dismiss that but there is there is something on the other side as well.

Jennifer Scheurle: Copyright is not only about money

  • Jennifer Scheurle : I think just one thing that we tend to forget whenever we talk about copyrights. The copyright discussion always seems be about money and that’s valid obviously in that’s where it comes from.

But there’s something more about this that you just touched on which is control over the things that you create and having agency over the things that you create.

Because you have to understand that I love musicians and you know developers like myself develop things that are very close to them and they’re very personal a lot of the time, so it’s not always only about money sometimes about where do I want my content to to pop up… am i okay with where the platforms exists or do I maybe feel uncomfortable with my content is very close to my heart and that is very personal sometimes to be on a platform and I not only disagree with or I find difficult or goes against what I believe in for example.

And that’s that a part of copyright that is not only about money.

  • Brigid Dixon: One of those stories that comes back to me, in about that idea of “where where do I want it to be” is when pauline hanson launched One Nation and used “I Am Australia” song. The people who own ted the copyright on that were really ashamed that it was being used and their way of pulling that song away from it.

Of saying that is not what this song is about you have no right to affiliate with that through copyright. They were able to say you don’t have the rights to that you can’t perform it publicly you can’t play it stop it.

  • Simon Frew: The original idea of copyright was to have a way to balance the rights between the creators and the consumers and so the original copyright last for 14 years the chance to give immunity to actually still publishing in for another 14. Now its for life plus 70 years which is absolutely ludicrous for the games there’s no way game consoles/systems we used today is going to still support it in 70 years time.

And so this is fields that we are discussing today and you see other works like old movies and old music pieces, where before it runs out of copyright no one listens or watches for 30 years because they would have to pay full price and they don’t know what it is and there is no way to access it legally.

And thus everyone waits until it comes out on public domain and they can access it again, and people like music historian will through what they find.

So what the problem the Pirate party sees is that this current copyright regime has been going too long and far in favor of the rights holders, and that winding the copyright period back to 15 years would be fine.

As for copyright for commercial purposes there’s a lot of mods for games and… (Note: Not too sure on the meaning)… modding … important to keep the game balanced they can sort out like if people make the mod sort of breaks the game they want to use it somewhat becomes a super character like that’s really important the owners can retain the control over single player games.

We think that it would be best to have the freedom to mod their copy of the game as long as you own the original copy of the game and be able to add whatever mods you like.

Already a lot of gaming companies realize this and support modding and have left their game open for it.

The balance has to be (Note: Unsure on wording) drivers for customers in South America.

Why can’t we have it like that? On internet, I could use a VPN and pretend to be American. And now I got it.

It’s like a stupid artificial barrier that drives consumers do it. And thus we feel we need to be able to acheive the balance back again.

  • McGinnis: There is an unpopular arguments within the party that copyright should only last for 25 years after the death of the author.

The theory that if you write or create something and following this you have celebratory sex then immediately afterwards you get hit by bus. Death of the author plus 25 years will get your kid through University and then on their own. (Laughter)

  • Paul Noonan: Yeah I think there’s a lot of a lot of truth in what you’re saying you know there are all sorts of examples of this where for example them Chris Bailey from the Saints seminal campaign for song called “firewood” back in about 78 or 79. Bruce Springsteen recorded with in 2014 and sold 500,000 copies.

Under the record cut under the platform of of the pirate party and there’s a lot I find about pirate party platform I find fine under a copyright perspective. But under that platform Chris would have gotten nothing out of that song and I don’t see the economic or other justification for that.

You know I’m in a band in the 80s we’ve got a major record label that for some reason wants to release two of our songs at the moment. The record company that financed that album never made us money back, I don’t see the economic reason why they should not be able to get some return now even though the song came out 30 years ago.

… continuing…

Morgan Jaffit: Emotive argument about creators rights vs industrial realities

  • Morgan Jaffit: I can touch on this in my perspective. I run a studio and the upshot of running a studio is that I own the work, and the people who work for us under a common game contract. It’s a very common model now, film, television, whole bunch of different industries. Can go back to comics
    Jack Kerby created but Stanley took credit and ownership of.

The true of the matter is that its very easy to make an emotive argument about the creator and the belief that they should profit from their work forty years onward.

But 99% of creators in today’s society are stiffed by corporations they’re not not seeing the profits.

So I don’t think it’s as simple as at the emotive argument that something was done with their work twenty or thirty years on and therefor they should profit.

You know it’s very easy look at the Marvel movies of none it’s were all created by people who are either still alive people who wrote the script or the comic book script that the movie is based on.

They were paid like fifty dollars at the time and they are not seeing a cent of it. This is the current norm. Mostly we are talking talking about protecting corporate interests.

The vast majority here is not talking about creators interests.

  • Brigid Dixon: Do you think that it would change the negotiating position though ( my experiences is music ) if in giving over their right it gives that long-term. So when you ask for your advance that’s what they have they have it.

If the term was that they have it only for 14 years or seven years and we’re talking about these big corporations do you think that that would change their negotiating from a third or less than a third of what could be expecting (Note: was really confused what she was trying to say here…)

  • Morgan Jaffit : Nah. Because we all know that these late windfall events are not baked into the price you pay. They happen and people benefit from it, but they are almost never priced into the the contract. You price in the first year sales and you multiply the next five years.

But at that time you consider yourself lucky if you pick up money at that line. But nobody banks and then it.

  • Brigid Dixon: (interjecting) And then it just dies in an archive.

  • Morgan Jaffit: Are you saying it would die in a archive if it didn’t have a big corporation?

  • Brigid Dixon: No I’m saying if the term is shorter, and if the corporation is not going to make money for that long of time. Then now is it just going to fade?

  • Morgan Jaffit: We are suggesting that if it goes out of copyright then people could make money out of it. Then we have competition in the marketplace to releast it in various forms.

  • Brigid Dixon: Would it really be competition? Because it would just be part of the commons?

  • Morgan Jaffit: That would be even better.

  • McGinnis: But wouldn’t the remixes of commons be under copyright as well? Also who are you going to go to? The guy down the street with his copy of Logic Pro? Or the original artist and his mates who is putting out the “Official” remix album?

  • Morgan Jaffit: Don’t get me wrong too. As with all things. There is a balance. In no way am I suggesting winding all these things back. As I said I run a company based on full time people. At the same time I don’t feel the need to provide for my children by locking it down.

Also games persist a lot more now, 70 years is pretty reasonable.

  • Brigid Dixon : I think that’s the issue. The life plus 70 years.

  • Morgan Jaffit : Yeah, and if you think about it. Nintendo will have a version of Super Mario Brothers on everything that they released as long as they are still a company. They are really good at continuing to refresh this up. But at the same time there is a lotta games released at the same time that are now just gone, and in fact in some cases difficult to reissue them because nobody knows the all the owning companies and shell company.

But like I’m not advocating for now right complete reversal, I do think you know in particularly Australian giving… given we have some little respect through law (laughter)

Practialities are going reverse a lot of these for us and at some point the law has to catch up with people are doing in mass.

  • Jennifer Scheurle: I’m curious when you say that the law has to catch up? Are you proposing something specific in this? I’m curious because I don’t know much about it.

  • Morgan Jaffit: Well I’m not too specific about it. I’m suggesting that at any point in time when you’re looking at you know a large percentage of population breaking the law regularly, you have to revise your laws.

  • Jennifer Scheurle: Yes, Totally that’s super true. But I also feel like this that there is a lot that has to do with culture and with how people react to these laws and how we consume things.

Because I feel like there’s a lot that has been part of the Australian almost an entity to to be angry about being so isolated and that’s very true I mean you are, sorry. (laughter)

And yes thats true and it’s very valid but I feel like because of that anger of being isolated and being left out of media and services. A lot of times their anger owners overshadows what some creators and consumers actually should be doing. You know there’s this something amazing thing there that we are kind of we can’t change it, or we overlooked because we’re so tangled up in this.

Because I believe that you all want you actually support the people that create for you.

I whole heartly believe th at you are on that part of the fence, but that all the other stuff get kind of in the way. B\but in the end who you’re hurting by Pirating is the creator so where do you start?

Simon Frew: Every creator has their own best business models

  • Simon Frew : With that, I sort of look at that being that I have lots of friends overseas, not having access to TV shows the day it is released in the u.s. ruins a TV show.

It’s a lot better now, but a few years ago the only way to not have the Walking Dead ruined for you is to pirate. It’s was literally the only way you could actually watch the show and not know what going to happen in the next scene. I think that’s sort of what drives a lot of the motivation is more just to actually enjoy it has it’s meant to be enjoyed, because we’re in a global communication system and that needs to be taken into account market segmentation merly screws us in Australia.

Generally with music and stuff I’m going to release an EP probably very early next year I actually spent my marketing budget to come down to this panel (laughter). So I better save up again.

  • Unknown Speaker: I told you, you like it during this panel.

  • Simon Frew: I will be putting it up on torrent sites myself, I’m going to put up the sales if you want to buy that’s great. But I’m going to do what I could to have it on different sites to share for free.

But anyone who want to have it can use it, but anyone that wants to use it for a film clip or a game. Please credit me, but besides that go crazy. I’m kind of feel it’s what I want from my music is people want to come see me live, so my plan is personal. I means its different for different artists I would not expect everyone to do what I’m suggesting.

But I want I plan to make my money by playing live gigs and plans that promote my live gigs by just giving my music to everybody and everyone will love it and everyone come and see me. That the theory.

Different models work for different people, especially when there are artists who are not comfortable in front of large crowds out and don’t really want to do that and they’d rather make their money selling their music. But thats my personal choices I’ve made myself.

  • McGinnis: I think we just about came to the end of the panel. It’s time to open up for questions! Can we get a microphone here to start.

Note: Okay… I got sick of transcribing at this point for easy flow reading. Someone else could try dealing with the questions and answer section if they care. Stopping at timestamp 42:08 in in youtube

Rest of automatic transcription results. Its horribly inaccurate, but still saves time. Feel free to continue transcripting if you feel like it.

… question we get our microphone at Venus that I wondered how you balance to make the contagion a beautiful H dot different point year but like real-world examples on the one hand you’ve got glendalough and Australian all the Shibboleth 70 she’s been writing novels for years she is not on scheduling benefits because she is getting royalties from books that were published all of the 15 years ago so extended copyright is keeping her awesomely benefit and it’s saving taxpayer money on the other hand you have plan again which is based in Adelaide as a combination University are printed University and some people in New Zealand they’re trying to get strategy and games that are the kind of games that were releasing tempies anxiety and put them online for free for people employees as legacy games and there are really difficult with some of these games they can’t track down who owns the copyright so happy balances you think needs with regards to copyright legislation could I just have a quick one of that I think there it’s a really good question if there are moves towards making some rules about what they call orphan works and and allowing use of words where copyright can’t be tracked back in their way the second thing I’d say about that is this is an argument it comes a lot from academics and I think that really if you’re havin that much trouble finding an owner and suggesting that they might make some money out of it family say take a risk even put it out there and see what happens because it’s likely that someone’s going to sue you not legal advice thanks for that recording - so so so so yes so that I think really there’s got to be there’s a threshold here where people are doing things that they probably shouldn’t be with copyright material and they’re not getting sued so there’s a lot of people making a lot of alarmist talk about the rises in copyright which yeah isn’t really there if you can’t work out who the owner is and you put it out there and then someone goes oh that’s mine then you can actually have the conversation because it’s your only way you can find the path the parent party actually has been a copyright policy on this that we want to set up like an often works office where you’re people who want to publish open works make money from it that if you have a longer that’s my mutant works there’s a spawn our money to reporting to you to the rights holder to they’re repeating arm that that way of dealing with it because it’s something where we think the open work should be able to be released Oh and edification foundation on the swedish research paper that suggests is increased piracy on users tend like to increase nice n by divita on content or so what’s the question so basically it says those a academic research paper that shows that the highest part the most equally parted the most schools are the most likely who were the heaviest spenders on media content so the dozens that farms as very few people they’re just hired reading in don’t pay for anything the people most likely to spend money on media the biggest parts arm which is select quite interesting arm like I don’t have any like real opinions of why it’s just interesting being I think it would love like a superior it gets tried before you guys messing up some accurate statistics see I don’t know that this peg reso I’m at work is this about people pirating something and then buying the same product or is just people who consume a lot of media because these two things are different because you know yes so you know that’s a it’s a strange correlation to make your think it’s a strange connection to make because of course if I ask my grandma with like 90s every pirate self-respect and hope that’s the difference do you know my cousin who’s 219 and you country with a little media overall so I’m not sure it’s the right thing to say that you know people who pirate are also you know great general consumers but what’s what’s interesting about that too and they see in the debt that comes through on our own content is exactly that it’s rarely hit conversion from from a pirate abuser to it to a paying user and back when I used to be part of a large corporate game developer we have very good sense if you have to wonder why likes beauty soft releases something with terrible deer and they are enemies and then two weeks later apologizes and says sorry and releases aversion doubt it because they know they do 90% of the sales in those two weeks and they know that if you can pirate your learn you’re more likely to buy it like they say have correct our data backup that decision-making process and and they’ve also looked out that you know you can apologize and back down every time and people you know people go oh cool I guess they think they screwed up they got the message that’s good but there could be protecting refers to exile they’re protecting their verse to excels precisely because they know that this is very you know you jump on Pirate Bay like oh not their command you inspire us to do you like them thank you and you grab that copy and then say look at the altar cos Delta heartless got fired moving particularly it is easy to buy digitally protect anymore okay I always think with that one also it’s bit like saying a chocolate despite a lot of food what does it excuse the face law you know it’s an interesting statistics but I don’t think it takes you a long life if there were better shoppers it needs one thing it could it could teacher is that when you look at any sort of method of any sort of the way that people consume things and people consuming a lot is that okay we actually really want to target higher fees we really want to stop them and how these people would buy so much why they’re buying needs it in enough on movies why is that what’s the price point set what’s that sex point there that would be a really smart thing to do like that and I think that should stop if you stop demonizing those people and start really communication but it’s kind of got to want to work out how to get their money because they’re the ones we’re gonna spend amazing stuff that becomes interesting argument is are these people really a lost sale are they going to spend the money anyway or are they going to take something else nobody every like no no no no not a lot style is it terrible like nobody lot sale comes up as a fallacy a lot nervous loses lifestyle nobody considered the pirated copies or so anyone who does this media and and like some or some percentage a lot sailed with without definite and there’s a lot of research to to back to them the question where that scale is like madness that my lives but but three players is the question pretty well X like which is on just about anything that’s representing evolution right like you can take any number on the planet and you can work at the conversion to tie into that’s right and and that look so it has no to get a lot self amazing if you want to chart if you want if you want any sort of certification if you need to make a certain amount of sales and that is a lost sale that is one two three percent your three percent time to getting your both set of information and others in 40 and that’s what we’re right here playing ahead select Rio Grande sorry my great wonderful yet they are very much some some percentage of all sales it’s just a one to one think that they get from the pirate detective a lot because they often say yes that’s right they’re they’re often you know I always say you know they lost 10,000 taels because we all know but we also know that it’s not total space and that the true circumstances I can talk to imagine they are in the area what species is easy with the area in some cases that when you buy that especially justly the DRM stops you complaining after them the amount of time while you go out and then you don’t want to pay the money to redownload something you already bought so then you’ve got the pirate of you know three page at once urgently is there a solution to that we use or something that the company that’s providing the planet illness or something cabin and erm shops you can actually using something you must pay for reducing at least steaming promise that if they ever go out of business they’ll release the master key that will the willingness yet another like if I got a business that the whole library gets available which is you know interestingly enough doesn’t take my rights as a creator and all but but to protect users rights which are much accurate you know those I prefer the democratic I think there’s an element here where where people are prepared this - probably might be a popular view but the people who prepared to take a benefit of dishes digital distribution but assume that what they’re supplying is an analog product and effect for a lot of rightsholders the idea of licensing people to use things on a particular device or for a particular amount of time or or whatever is a way of Manickam getting revenue streams that might compensate for piracy and I think people have have to get consumers maybe need to get their heads around the idea to what they don’t fly in the book anymore and then an advocate can hand it on to the whether they want to they’re buying the right to get something and at main and that right might have different scopes and depending on obviously like shouldn’t we then get an active defense yeah yeah yeah what maybe he should I’m a consumer torso I’m not I’m not taking a particular view on this and and and I as a lawyer act for different people on different sides of these fences I’m just it’s just struck me that a lot of the consumer expectation is that they’ll get all the benefit of digital access to things and the convenience north absolutely weather but not they don’t want to have the downside of the limits that digital distributors can put on stuff all that’s finally happening and making something like so like if it’s like DRM limited and it’s coming like run out one day or something you’re not actually buying it you’re renting it and leaders like we just William review it as basically we think eight years but they are a moment you should be able to return for a fourteen hundred in the first few months because it’s um just a scanning used by the companies through for consumers and um like you can win so today they’re legally allowed to but morally it’s really scummy and it’s difference whereas law and morality completely different things and so you’ve got public yourself lack of what do you want to do and how you want to create your continuous like stuff like that human drinkin’s use me better I think yeah right I think that she’ll attack last question oh okay okay so I just have a question about your opinion about YouTube and the rigor of all about whatever the whole issue with copyright on YouTube and recorder in your photography you’re filming for us or maybe for a YouTube channel by any chance what is funnily enough yeah but I using the you choose standard license or the Creative Commons one can I please up with an excuse I’m okay I’ve got a car here if you want some advice I think it depends on the circumstance but I’ve sort of seen a favorite about debates around live-streaming and who ends right to like live streaming games and stuff like that and so the virtual playthroughs are like where when the line between what what is a game and like answer is watching a virtual play through our own like watching a movie or is it actually like playing straight of the game it was like it’s sort of separate thing personally what it says the tough issue and I think like generally like most companies handle it really well and like just allow people to life comes to their playthroughs and reviews and hints and tips and stuff like that and there’s kind of let it go and they can but yeah like it is a problem and it gets cracked down on yeah I think a really interesting part of that is in question art that I’m answering like I think a really interesting part of YouTube question is that YouTube is consumed constituting a much larger percentage of our our viewing than it used to we have content laws in Australia of television stations and for local content and that drives a lot of a lot of funding around Australian content across the boards and as we move to other distribution methods funding is dropping on the television side there’s a big push from from TV stations to drop those content quotas so that they have less pressure on them because that lets viewers now and and I think it’s very tough in Australia where there are leaves are given there’s a lot of struggling angles coming at it but we would all like to see Australian content hunter we’d like to see YouTube doing more than it is at the moment I think drilling power and and create opportunities for Australian craftsmen so at the texture of Netflix which which brought to us without an income content quotient funds a whole bunch of stuff that a lot of Australians does like collecting money from Australians there’s globalization of all of these networks and the reliance on backbone to the fundamental u.s. or Asian tech companies I think it means that we potentially move into a future in which all Australian content has to survive on the commercial spoon global stage as opposed to having the opportunities that we’ve built up over the years and I think it’s interesting question I don’t have any clear answers till that is just something we need to be aware of as we move our our viewership and our attention to so many other different mediums that we must be moving off the mediums that we use to create the great ears of Australian television and film I don’t know much about about the laws and everything you have to do with your closes but I always felt that especially new communities like YouTube and like Twitter - whatever you want to look at have been really incredible on many occasions of sharing and sharing not only content but sharing the success around if you want so a lot of regulations on those platforms was also powerful phenomenon greater platforms have been regulated just by the community wanting to actually help each other out and that’s a really interesting part when we talk work or relational cotton and how you know we always struggle with it at all but we kind of don’t see the Creator very often sort themselves out on many many occasions and if we could work together a bit more on both sides there will be a really well looking to do I just want to take on from your point there’s a lot obviously in this room in interests of anytime you have these conversations of feeling that there are big rights holder groups that have got enormous a lot of power in the copyright debate I don’t think that anyone should underestimate the power of Google in this debate and the influence that they’re bringing to bear in Australia and around the world on liberalizing copyright laws in a way that suits their business model and doesn’t always benefit creators that’s something that I think a lot more attention should be paid to all the sembly right yep all right um I think yes we’re brands 20 minutes at a time [Applause] you

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If above is annoying to copy and paste for remixing, then ask me for the original textfile, and I’ll email it to you.


Oh wow, this is awesome! I’ll definitely have to nab a copy of that. One correction first, though: Paul’s surname is Noonan, not Newman (Paul Newman was an actor). :wink:

Okay here is a copy for you to use as needed. Maybe to make an official transcript etc… for the pirate party blog or something:

also spelling corrected

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